Episode 418 – Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin

Full Episode Download:

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1: Maddad Ayoob and Gail Pepin Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin Part 2

5- Interview Segment 3 Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin Part 3

6- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome中国体彩官方app to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, August 14th, 2017 I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk with Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin interacting with the police.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about a truck driver murdered while working his dream job.

Tracy: I’m Tracy Thronburg, and we have a defensive gun use where a man left the hospital and came 中国体彩官方app to find an intruder in his 中国体彩官方app.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs we talk about the best kind…no shots fired… so climb aboard.

Amy: strap in

Belle : and hang on!

Paul: episode 418 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I posted another episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories. The last podcast was with Ben Branam. The next one is with Amanda Suffecool.


I’ve been studying the rates of concealed carry in shall-issue states. I started with John Lott’s data and kept digging. Now I have to write up the research.


Belle – been taking my first time off of the year for some family time. Getting Firearms Academy of Seattle ready for Gunsite 150 Pistol course this weekend and getting myself ready for GSSF in Port Townsend, WA. – all this coming weekend.


John – I’ve had a quiet week. I did go “junking” with Barb on Saturday and picked up some cheap pewter. I plan to use it as part of my lead alloy for casting bullets. Pewter is mostly tin and antimony so a little bit hardens up the cast bullets. Rob’s digging reminded me of a plea I need to make. If any one of our listeners is good at social network analysis, please get in touch with me at john@ad7.8f3.myftpupload.com. It is a social science tool showing interconnections. Among the things I want to study are large law firms and gun control groups.


Tracy – I was a student in Karl Rehn’s beta class of Historical Handgun this past Saturday at his private training facility. I don’t want to disclose too much since we will be interviewing Karl about this class. Suffice to say, my ego was brought back down to earth. It was a humbling experience!




Amy- Spent the weekend in Charleston, SC with a friend I served with in the military that I had not seen in a few years so it was a fun time! Getting ready to leave this weekend to teach a Ladies Defensive Handgun Class at On Target Gun Club in Atlanta, GA.


Paul/Susan MAG 40


Promo about upcoming training classes here


JOHN – Patch Promo – I will make another plea for listeners to buy a Polite Society Patch. They are $10 for 1, $18 for 2. We take both PayPal and checks. Send PayPal to john@ad7.8f3.myftpupload.com. If you’d rather send a check, just pop me an email at that same address for my mailing address.



2- News 1


Tracy – Truck Driver Robbed

lost his life while living his childhood dream job. Odom’s parents, in Jonesborough, Tennessee, understand that accidents and crashes come with the business. However, the Vietnam veteran never thought his son would die in a robbery. Sgt. Don Coppola, a Baton Rouge police spokesman, said investigators believe Odom was shot after he turned over his possessions to the robber. The unknown suspect in a black hoodie and carrying a backpack was seen pacing the parking lot. After the shooting, he ran across the parking lot toward the Citi Trends store. The police have detained some people for questioning, but the investigation continues.


Paul – National Reciprocity (or the lack of is losing us lives.)



John – HR 38 has 208 cosponsors! 205 Republicans and 3 Democrats. It is 10 less than the number needed to pass the bill.

Gary –


Please mention (202) 224-3121 Congressional switchboard

Amy – Very important to call your congressmen and women! Every call from a constituent is recorded!


John –

A 70-year-old Vietnam veteran said he was watching television in his Taberg, New York, 中国体彩官方app when deputies knocked on his door, then entered and confiscated his firearms.

The veteran, Don Hall, was told by the deputies that he had a record of mental issues. They took his handguns, then asked if he had any long guns. They took those also.

Hall hired an attorney, who advised Hall that he would have to prove that he was not the Don Hall with mental issues. Hall and his attorney blame the gun controls contained in the 2013 SAFE Act, which was passed in the wake of the heinous attack on Sandy Hook Elementary School. One of the controls in the Act was a new reporting requirement for “health providers.”


Amy – I know that this is a major concern in the veteran community. A lot of combat veterans especially being diagnosed with PTSD are scared of how this may affect their Second Amendment rights and sometimes won’t seek treatment because they don’t want it being reported!

John –

Rob- I read a follow up report. He asked to see his records in the local hospital. They records technician was quite upset when he asked if his records showed any mental health treatments. He was falsely reported.


Belle – Gun Quotes

Surround yourself with people who move towards the sound of gunfire. Unknown


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guests Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin.



3- Interview

Tracy – I’d like to welcome Karl Rehn to the Polite Society Podcast. Karl is the man that I call “boss.” He is my friend and mentor. He is a grand master shooter in USPSA and has trained with the best in the business. So, Karl, what was the driving force behind your creation of Historical Handgun?


Karl Rehn –


Rob- Was the modern technique and the contemporary hunched-isosceles really progress? Progress, or adaption to changing hardware.


Amy – This sounds like such an interesting class! The analysis of shooting techniques, stances, and the approach of teaching is something the military studies as well. In the Marine Corps, the combat marksmanship training program changed during the war and policies we were teaching at the recruit depot when I was there directly changed because of these studies. The military is currently involved with civilian shooting sports as well which also affect current training!


Belle – Hey Karl- Marty Hayes says “hi” Thats funny you mention the distance shooting being hard to come by, we just had a stage in our local IDPA Match (not technically legal, of course) that was prone- 50 yrds And our Active Shooter course here is focused on distances up to 50yds. You have to really search to find facilities that can offer you that training or practice- cool that you’re providing that also! When are you holding the next one?


Rob- What does the firearms community have to do so more people take training?

Walmart class- traveling trainers need a two day course.


Half-day courses?

Evening courses?

Stepping stones of advancement.

Make training cheap and easy..and cost $50 to $80.


Amy – I agree with you, Karl. I have found more success as a trainer offering shorter, more frequent classes with lower round counts. I think the beginner shooter gets fatigued faster than someone who is more advanced. Would you agree with that as well?


Paul – is there anything you have found that overcomes the “ My uncle Bubba taught me everything I need to know about shooting?


4- Interview 2


Tracy 5- DGUs (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always, the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Amy – No Shots Fired

Trevor Debord had some small things disappear from his 中国体彩官方app recently and was having the locks changed on his 中国体彩官方app on Monday. He had just left the hospital and had a bad feeling and decided to swing by his 中国体彩官方app.

When he got 中国体彩官方app, he heard some noise upstairs. He grabbed his gun and climbed the stairs to confront the intruder.

He found a teenage boy hiding in one of the bedrooms. The boy obeyed every command that Debord gave him.

Local police arrived shortly after Debord and took the boy into custody. It appeared that the boy entered the 中国体彩官方app through a window.


“Seeing somebody just kind of standing there nervous you feel bad but then again it’s your 中国体彩官方app. You need to protect it with all you can,” Debord said.


Rob- Let’s separate luck from best practice.

One unarmed 中国体彩官方appowner walked into his 中国体彩官方app. He had to move across his 中国体彩官方app to become armed. What if he’d met several armed intruders? He would have started a fight he couldn’t win. Don’t be that guy.


Gary – Ex-boyfriend lucky to be alive

It has been said that a protection order will not protect you. Joshua Cuthbertson had an order against him and he knew it. He also ignored it recently.

He recently went to his ex-girlfriends with a container of gasoline and a baseball bat. When the dogs started barking, the man also living at the 中国体彩官方app came outside. He smelled gasoline and found Cuthbertson hiding behind his vehicle. Cuthbertson then attacked him with the bat, hitting him several times in the head.

The man then shot Cuthbertson in self-defense and then administered medical aid until the police and ambulance arrived.

Cuthbertson was treated for multiple gunshot wounds and charged with assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill and violating a protection order.


John – While it may sound callous but let the EMTs deal with it.

Belle -You mentioned you may be sorry you shot someone. Don’t be sorry you survived!

Rob- Try to train with the people you live with. It will make you 10 times harder to beat with a baseball bat.

Amy – Yes! Train for different scenarios.

Rob- Military has plans.

Belle- My kids and I play the ‘what-if” game all the time. It’s not to scare, just prepare – (and yes, I use the rhyme to make it simpler and sweeter for the little ones) We also rely heavily on our dogs- I cant imagine not having them as part of my security plan.


Tracy – Another Psychological Stop

On a recent Sunday afternoon, Bobby Watson tried robbing a woman in a Publix parking lot. She fought back and Watson stabbed her and ran.

Christopher McMann witnessed the attack and approached Watson. Watson then stabbed McMann.

Another Good Samaritan, Travis Jones, then chased and tackled Watson only to be stabbed in the abdomen. Donald Rush saw what was happening and grabbed his gun from his car and ran at Watson. He was able to disarm him and held him at gunpoint until deputies arrived.

The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.

Rob- Right here we see the statistics of an armed citizenry. An attacker armed with knife stabbed a number of people..until he met a victim armed with a gun.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


John – From Facebook


Is there something to this? I’ve seen too many organizations reach their goals and claw for any excuse to justify continued existence.

I’ve had some nagging thought about the NRA and its leadership lately. It started when they waited till the last second to disinvite USCCA from the Member’s Meeting. Then that week they revealed Carry Guard. No doubt a worthwhile service the the USCCA has set the gold standard for legal insurance and training for many years now. The Carry Guard program began on a bad foot banning revolvers and 1911s from their classes.


They are setting up their own schools and events which will severely cut into the trade of smaller schools and otherwise well known trainers who are doing yeoman’s work in areas not usually well served by traditional shooting schools. I am 100% all for taking as much training from qualified instructors as is realistic for the individual to undertake. I am adamant about that.

Now look at the changing landscape. IF we get Reciprocity passed in the face of the opposition and the know it alls on our side NRA has a problem. That slays one of the boogiemen they’ve traded on for decades. They seem to fear having to go back to running matches, youth events and museums. They have gotten a definite taste for the power that comes from being able to elect and un-elect politicians. They need a new cash cow. As we know as more people get into the 2A lifestyle training even when not mandates always skyrockets no matter what Whoopie Goldberg says on the View.


My concern here is the damage to the the hard working instructors with small operations who take great pride in instilling high levels of competence and safety in their students. THEY won’t have a national program to steer them clients. This does not bode well. Some have said that a 2A revisement amendment that established nation constitutional carry and removed Class III restrictions and recognized SYG, parking lot provisions and established Castle Doctrine with teeth would be a nightmare for the NRA with no more dragons to slay.



Paul – I am not going to say that USCCA is the gold standard because quite simply they aren’t. In protection of members in my opinion ACLDN is at the head of the pack.

Belle-Thank you, Paul! Marty did lay the foundation and didn’t ask for any of the glory. Check out last month’s ACLDN eJournal to see what Marty had to say to the NRA and how they responded.


Rob- There are not enough instructors if even a few percent of gun owners take training. The NRA stumbled when they tried to roll out their online learning program. They lost a lot of their instructors when they did that, or at least their instructors developed credentials with other training organizations.

Belle- But don’t we want that training to be high quality for armed citizens, not tacticool types.




Rob- Text message #1

Morning crew,

I was wondering which do you all prefer, hammer fired or striker fired and why?

Thanks for the content in every show.




Belle- 1911. Finest Handgun Known To Man! – Says the girl who carries a Glock19 as we speak. Can’t you like both?

Paul -Striker

Tracy – 1911. I’m pretty good with a 1911. I learned on a 1911. I carry a 43, cuz my 1911s are heavy.

Rob- Yes, JP, your gun needs one or the other. I don’t care which it has. The striker guns are simpler for new shooters to master.

Amy – I agree with Belle! I like both for different reasons, but prefer striker fired. I just shoot my Glock the most! I did learn with a Beretta M9 first though. And I do love my 1911s! I like all guns! Like Tracy and Rob were talking about, train to be proficient with EACH gun you own!

John – All I’m going to say is that I prefer a hammer on my revolvers so I have the option of SA or DA.



Belle – Text message #2 (clayton)


I agree with Tracy. I find it weird that cops perform chest compressions on people with bullet holes. Wouldn’t that increase blood loss?





Amy – Text message #3 from George Zimmerman


I have been listening to your podcast and noticed that you’ve been asking for listener feedback. You are all doing a great job and I truly appreciate the manner you all “spread the word” the right way! Thank you all!



Tracy – Email from Clayton


AR versus AK is a no brainer to me in today’s market. AR’s are flooding the market and basically half the price of a glock, I pay 29 cents a round, everyone and their grandmother makes accessories, and magazines are common. Besides, “what’s his face” blocked imports on 7.62 and 5.45 by 39 so those prices suck now.

*Bleep* yeah, Tracy! Just use an American rifle!
-still Clayton


Tracy – Good to hear from you again, Clayton! Keep the feedback coming, Thanks for being a dedicated listener of our podcast!


Paul – I am looking for the


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts you want to mention?


Rob- I admire a lot of people in the self-defense movement. Have you noticed what socialists and big government gun-grabbers say about these advocates? In some cases, these advocates are my personal friends..like the people on this podcast. My article is titled By the time this episode airs, I should also have my article done about licensing fees and the price of self-defense. You can find those stories at Clash Daily, at Ammoland, and on my blog at


John, what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


I received a solicitation for money from State Senator Phil Berger of NC. He is the President Pro Tem of the NC Senate. He is one of the leaders responsible for our constitutional carry bill not coming to the floor for a vote. The only way they should get a yes and money is if they start actually passing gun rights legislation. This includes at the national level where we still haven’t gotten action on national reciprocity or the Hearing Protection Act. The Republicans have counted on gun owners to win them elections. We need to tell them to put up or shut up.


That and more is at

Rob- did you answer Berger’s solicitation? You’ve got him by his wallet.


Amy have you written anything you want to talk about?

I’ll start posting the specific new articles I write each podcast!


Anyone else want to bring something up?

(Post a link, Amy)




Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast. I’d like to thank Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin for joining us today. So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Tracy: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam. For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else. Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.